Published February 2007, NewConsumer.com

Dale Vince on wind love, Noel Edmonds, and that B&Q turbine.

On the same day that Ofgem sent out a press release saying the government's renewables scheme wasn't working, we caught up with Dale Vince, founder and MD of green energy company Ecotricity. He was voted one of the world's top 100 eco heroes last year by the Environment Agency.

Do you still get involved on-site when Ecotricity's putting up a new turbine?

I like to go along, but I don't have anything to do with the project management. I get to have my hard hat on the for the interview and the photo shoot [laughs]. But I love it. I love to get there for the final lift, when the blades go up. I can't say it's as exciting as the first one, but it's still very special to see one go up and I think it's because what we're building is a fantastic mahcine in terms of efficiency and for 30 years it'll generate green electricity. And that's an achievement, an enduring achievement each time one of these machines goes up. Particularly if you take into account the 4-5 years you fight the planners, and you finally build it and it starts to produce energy.

I've been to Swaffham, where they love your turbines. Are communities always so welcoming of your turbines?

No, no, not at all! It comes back to the old phrase, that wherever you go in the country, about 80 per cent of the people will be for what you're doing or not against it. And 10 per cent of people will be almost rabidly against it. 10 per cent don't know.

It's a matter of perception. The media can only hear from that 'anti' 10 per cent, as they're pressure groups that create headlines. So it's a case of the silent majority. In some areas we do hear from the silent majority and they establish their majority status, such as in Swaffham. There, the majority found its voice - after we built first turbine, they passed a resolution at the town council passing a resolution calling on us to build a second one because they loved the first so much. After six months passed, they wrote us a polite letter reminding us to build their second one. At the time, it was also the first megawatt class turbine in the UK - nothing that size had been built of the size before in the UK.

Are you going to build more flagship turbines like the one at Man City football club?

Yes, definitely. Reading is a good example of one we've done already. Our objective is to put wind in front of as many people as possible, as nine out of ten people haven't seen one personally. Newspapers are full of misinforation about noise and house prices, so the average person needs first person experience. In Reading, the people really love it. The radio stations have adopted it as a local landmark and the council is now talking of going 100 per cent green in its energy.

What are the three big differences between 1995 - when Ecotricity started - and 2007?

The big one is climate change. Back then, few knew about it, even fewer people believed in it. Now very few don't know about it, and even less say it doesn't exist. It makes wind necessary.

Second is the technology. There haven't been any massive breakthroughs, more a steady progression - the machines have gone up in size by a factor of five and the yield [the amount of electricity generated considering size] by a factor of more than six.

Lastly, public attitudes have changed, with people embracing it, which comes back to the big change - climate change and awareness of it.

Can you see Ecotricity branching into new areas of renewables as they become more mature/mainstream, e.g. tidal?

We were called the Renewable Energy Company initially, but at the moment wind is the only tech in the UK that can be done at a price people can pay and at the sort of volumes we need to fight climate change. As soon as other technologies prove they're ready, we'll get involved. But my understanding is that wave and tide's potential is not that huge in the UK.

Could off-shore be the answer to problems with planning and NIMBYism?

No, because it costs twice as much to build. If it was as marvellous as people are saying, we'd have seen loads more of it now already. Offshore wind can't get by without help from government, because the electricity is twice the price of onshore wind. That 'biggest ever wind farm' to be built off Kent won't get built without government cash handout - it's just spin. One of the lobby groups pushing this is the Renewable Energy Foundation, which basically advocates every renewable technology but the most proven one: on-shore wind [the British Wind Energy Association says the REF, which includes Noel Edmonds as a supporter, is 'peddling false claims'].

What do you think of Ofgem saying the Renewables Obligation is too expensive? It reckons 'customers have been overcharged by £47m' since 2002. The DTI rejects it.

I gotta back the DTI by saying Ofgem are talking nonsense. The planning system delays planning, not the RO. Ofgem's response to the recent RO consultation was to back a sysytem of bidding rather than tendering which, funnily enough, is where we came from.

Before the RO we had a sytem called the Non Fossil Fuel Obligation (NFFO), and we had five rounds of that before it ended. One of the universally accepted truths about it is that it caused a major planning problem. The reason is that when you're in competitive tender, you squeeze your bid, unrealistically in many cases, because it's do or die, contract or no contract. That drives developers to windy hills. A tiny difference in wind speed makes a huge difference to energy output, so it sent people to the hills.

Can you ever imagine selling Ecotricity to a big utility?

No! I love what we do. Lot of troubles in the world today are to do with money - the way the City rules business. The City builds in short-termism and rules out altruism. The greening of business is happening because of consumers, not because of business. Take the supermarkets, which used to be in a price war, and are now in a war to be seen as the greenest - even Wal-Mart's getting involved.

Brown or Cameron? Who'd you prefer, considering your job?

Neither! No, not the Green Party either. Lib Dems? Definitely not, judging from the Lib Dem councils we've worked with. If I had to choose Brown or Cameron, I'd choose Brown, for sure. Cameron talks a good talk, but I'm not sure it's genuine. His policy may be a very different story in two years' time.

What do you think of the Windsave mini turbine that B&Q sell?

Rubbish. It could cause problems for mini wind. It'll be a big let down for people buying it, because the figures it's based on are from a DTI wind database that doesn't represent urban areas' wind speeds. Some universities that I know are using it, and are getting load speeds of 2-3 per cent. It should be hitting about 25 per cent to hit the energy B&Q claims it'll produce. My main problem is that it's sold on a false premise.

Are new mini turbines coming?

Yes, by summer there should be two or three new ones, but I can't name them. Also, wait for spring, as the DTI is coming out with new accreditation rules on mini turbines, detailing how they can arrive at their claimed outputs.

If new nuclear plants get the green light, what will the impact be on renewables?

If it changed government policy, it'd be a shame, but I'm not worried because any nuclear plants would take 20 years to get built. Besides, the two technologies could co-exist. The funny thing is that they both share the same weakness: they can only run baseload [a steady level of electricity - they can't fire up quickly like hydro or coal to generate power for electricity spikes].

Is there any long-term trend for wind in the UK?

Well, the last two months have been incredibly windy. But there are no signs of a long term change.

But could climate change, which is predicted to bring stronger storms, actually prove a boon for turbines?

No, because when winds get to 60mph, turbines automatically shutdown.

Will the government meet it's 2010 renewables target? [10 per cent of UK electricity from renewables by 2010]

Not unless they change planning laws. They may meet the target by fiddling the figures, such as letter coal firing plants into the renewables figures - though coal-firing ones are due to come off the stats soon. Real new capacity can't be built unless planning changes.

Why do you think so few people switch to green electricity tariffs, considering switching sites make it so easy?

I think it's confusing, and hard to believe you'll genuinely make a saving. Lots of people just aren't bothered. The savings aren't that big for most people today anyway - £30 a year isn't a lot. There's no real motivator. It's the same 50 per cent of the UK that have always been switching, and they'll jump between British Gas and Npower, who are both fighting to stand still.

If I was a student who cared about climate change, would you recommend I go into politics or the private sector to have the maximum impact?

I'd say private, because governments change all the time, and you could have a faster impact in the private world. You can innovate, be heard quicker and setup your own business. I get the impression you have to 'serve your time' first before getting any real power in politics.

What green measures do you take at home?

We moved to a new house in the summer to be closer to work, and that's cut petrol use by around 98 per cent. It's a 150 year old house with stone walls. We've got super insulation inside - dry lining. We've also got a thermal heat store that's connected to a solar thermal array [that provides hot water] on the roof.

We'll get wind and solar PV installed later this year in a bid to go almost off grid. We're playing with smart metering too, trying out the Wattson and Electrisave.

Plus we're vegan, we compost, we use rainwater collection for the toilets. We've found an old water tank in one of the cellars too that we'll soon be using for water collection.

I think we'll all be more responsible for our water and energy in the next decade - a bit like people were a century ago, which is an odd Back to the Future scenario.

What's your personal motivation to do the job? Kids?

Well, sustainability comes naturally to me. The environment has always been a big issue, plus I don't like wasting things and I like doing what feels right. I have children and I could say it's them, but that's not it.

I'm trying to change the world in a small way. It's too easy to be apathetic and say 'they' are responsible for all that's bad.

I enjoy challenges and can't imagine what I'd do if I retired. My goal is for Ecotricity to get a million customers. We've got 25,000 now, which has doubled on last year, would like to get 50,000 by end of this year - I think we've got the wind behind us.